Alicia McCollum Candidly Discusses Newburgh 4 with CagePrisoners

An exclusive interview by Aviva Stahl

Tell me a little bit about David was like growing up.

(In Alicia McCollum’s words): [Beginning cut off] David grew up without a father… this family is run by women, not men.   We don’t have male role models for the young men in our family… There’s like fifteen nephews. The women, we do the best we can with what we got.

How do you think that affected [David]?

I believe all young men, especially… people of colour, need a strong role model. When you look at the 1940s and 50s, how the family unit stayed together, and how fathers stayed in their lives back then and showed the men what it is to work and to be responsible and planted positive seeds in their life… You don’t see that in the culture anymore, in our culture, in African American culture anymore. So it’s women who are in the forefront, holding everything down, taking care of the household, without a male figure. And you look at the difference between this generation now, and then when the drugs and the crack era hit our community… When you look at the dividedness around the male figures, that piece is missing. When you watch grandpa, you watch granddad, you watch your father have a work history… when you don’t see that anymore, in our culture, and you see very few. And that plays a hell of a role on our men growing up.

Could you tell me about [David’s] conversion to Islam?

Well, David was introduced to Islam when he went to Newburgh. His grandmother has been in the Muslim community for years. David was introduced when he was about eight. He was introduced to it but he never really took it seriously, he went and became a drug dealer. When he got incarcerated, I think he took it up. Most men, when they become incarcerated, they don’t want to join gangs, so a lot of them go to the Islamic in prison, because it’s peaceful, and they’re going to watch your back….

Most men, when they do go to jail and become Muslims, while they’re in there, when they come home it’s a different tune. It’s because they wanted to be protected by Muslims when they were in there, while they were incarcerated. But for David, he was introduced was he was eight. He believes in it, he considers himself a Muslim, and I believe him. He came home and said he was a Muslim, and I said, “Okay”. We’ve never had a discussion about Muslim versus Christianity, or my god versus his god, we never had discussions on that magnitude. 

And before the whole case unfolded, did you ever have an inkling, or was there ever any suggestion that he held anti-American or anti-Semitic beliefs?

David didn’t have any beliefs. This is what people need to know. None of these men had any beliefs. The only belief they had was, how can we get over on this informant, and how can we get paid…. that was their only belief! And that’s sad, for ex-offenders, and people who are just getting fast money, to even think on that magnitude. That’s a question I myself have, that I’m not going to get any answers to at this point. How can you get yourself caught up in something of that magnitude? But that’s between him and God, and I’m going to leave it at that. But what our government did… two wrongs don’t make a right. The injustice that they did to these men, they will be held accountable.   Who holds the government accountable for their actions? I’m going to make sure, until my dying breath, that they’re held accountable for what has happened. That’s why I’ve been speaking so strongly about what’s happened.

…I think they looked at and profiled this family, I really believe they did, because this family has a history of incarceration and drug use, that they thought they could use us in that manner and that nobody would come out and challenge them. But they thought wrong on that one. Because I’m American, and David’s American, and we aren’t going to let our country use us in that way. I wrote Obama, and I said, this is a new form of slavery… Really! For political gain, you want to sell your own people off, for political gain, for money? And I just don’t understand that.

And how did David get involved with Cromitie and Hussain?

Well, David’s brother was very sick.   I have a photo of the tumour they took out of Lord’s stomach – it’s bigger than a watermelon… Lord almost died five times while he was in the hospital. They played on that.

They knew that Lord was sick, they knew we just lost a brother. They profiled us, we’d just lost a nephew at 24. Lord was sick at that same time. We were already going through our own family dynamics and hardship. For you to use a family like that, when you already knew what was going on, the government should be ashamed of itself. David’s brother almost died five times, and I can understand David’s point of view, as his older brother: how can I help my brother? He needs help, he needs a new liver. But if he would have talked to people, he would have found out, you can’t buy a liver. That it has to be given to you. David just seen, how can I help my mother, how can I help my brother, I’m the oldest. He was in a dark place.

We don’t have much, but we do have love. And just like I’m fighting for David, David was fighting for his bother, the best way he knew how. And I’m fighting for David the best way I know how. We may not have much but one thing we have is love… Nothing will stop me from standing up for [David], That’s why I was in court every day, to let them know…

I work with a lot of young men like David, ex-offenders who come home, who have learning disabilities, who can’t find jobs, who have felonies on their record. And you got walls and walls stacked up against you, and you can’t make it, so when opportunities do come your way… that was an opportunity. Each one of them had their own personal fight with themselves, you need money for this one, I need money for that one, and how we can make it, you know. When the informant saw that they weren’t moving on it, and that even came out in court, that Robert Fuller [the FBI handler] even told [the informant, Hussain] to go up on the ante, and he took it upon himself to say, $250,000. What I’ve seen in court, it shouldn’t even be made a movie.

What I’ve seen in court, in those two months, with their sole witness, who was an informant and a criminal himself… You won’t believe this criminal and this informant, who’s very sneaky. I can see why they used him. He’s good. I called him a shyster…  He’s a shyster. He’s a slick motherfucker, that’s what we would call him in the streets. He’s an actor! And he’s good. Informants become actors, they lie so much, they have to play the role. And he’s good… he’s very good.

And, as David got more involved with the plot, do you think he was thinking about brother? Do you ever wonder what was going through his mind?

I don’t know, that’s something you’d have to ask David. We know that David initially did it to help his brother, when the man said all I need is lookouts, and that no one would get hurt. Because we have some of the tapes that the government used, but we only have what they picked people to see, the illusion. What I found out in these two years is the tactics that are used. In any terrorist case, or plot, by the government, any terrorist tactics that they used are fear and intimidation. And since post 9/11, the fear and intimidation, that’s how they came up with this pre-emptive prosecution.

We got a resolution passed in Albany on pre-emptive prosecution, and now it’s just trying to get it adopted by every other council member in New York and other counties and places. The government is going rogue, the government has lost its fucking mind. The government is creating new laws that are the unthinkable, that lawyers cannot even fight. Nobody can win in these cases because they don’t even know what they’re fighting against. And it’s unreal.

I watched this in two years, and I thought, “This is unreal! I don’t believe this! This is crazy I feel like I’m in the twilight zone! No, really, what the hell is going on here?” I’d come home, thinking, I’d stay up until 2, 3, 4 o’clock before I go to court, thinking, what am I seeing?… They’re creating new laws, they’re going rogue, and no one’s monitoring them. Fear – yes – everyone was scared the twin towers went down, but then I look at, they’re always bombing someone else… how do you think those people feel? You’re over there bombing in Afghanistan, dropping bombs, and someone knocks down your twin towers, and then you go cuckoo?

In the past two years, politics is so vicious. The political arena is vicious. No morals and no integrity…. I told David, you pulled us into some deep shit… You weren’t thinking, and it’s sad, you weren’t thinking, if you got caught, what would have been the outcome… When they named you a terrorist, it went around the whole world… I had to take it upon myself to stand up and fight this case, against the whole world, and our own damn government…

I choose not to walk in fear. Because I’m American, you’re not going to make me walk in fear. I’m not going to be scared of my own country. I’ve been walking these streets, I’m 51 years old… You’re not going to make me fear, where I’m going to be turning my head and have to worry about my own government.   I refuse to live in fear…. You’re not going to use the media, use those mind games on me. You sent the informant in and COINTEL all over again. You’re using COINTEL in a different way, you’re using informants in a different way. We know the war on drugs… but now when you use it for [the War on Terror]… Not only David, but my whole family, when you pull David into this fake case.

On June 29^th the prosecutor said, “Yes your Honour, we know this is a fake case”. At the time, it was real to everybody. The charges weren’t fake, the papers weren’t fake, the fear that we had wasn’t fake, the intimidation that we saw on TV, with the CIA and the FBI and the government, that wasn’t fake. That was real! But when I saw that no one came to talk to us from homeland security or the FBI office, I thought, now wait a minute, you call him a terrorist, shouldn’t they be coming to interview me or something? I was telling my family to prepare themselves and everything. May went by, June went by, July went by, and I thought, what’s going on here?

And they never came to interview you?

They never interviewed anyone in this family, not even the mother, the house you kicked in, you never even took her down to the FBI building, or Lord. You kicked in their house and put on this scene, and you never took anyone to get interrogated, not homeland security nor the FBI… I asked my lawyer, if David is a threat to the United States, why aren’t we being interviewed?… He never got back to me. I figured it out myself… why should they? It’s their own plot, it’s their own movie script. You don’t need to interview us, we weren’t part of their script, only David. We were the extras and didn’t even know about it, we didn’t even know we were extras in a fucking movie! That’s crazy! If he’s a threat to the United States why didn’t anybody interview the mother, you kicked in her door and you didn’t even take her downtown or take her to the FBI or homeland security! That’s when I knew the case was full of shit.

I’m wondering what it was like for your family right after the arrest, especially with the way the case was depicted in the media?

We were in fear, my whole family was in fear, that’s why only I came out to fight for David… And the rest of them don’t know how to fight. And that’s okay, I tell them, I will take the brunt. You have to put a person in a predicament, to stand up for their whole family, to fight the world. If any media questions come, ask me, leave my family alone, because we didn’t do anything.

I made the decision to stand up for this family and fight for David…. I have 15 nephews, 10 nieces… I have a family I have to protect, I have a baby sister with kids that I love to death. You put a whole family in fear.

My nephew, nine or eight years old at the time, sitting glued to the TV, David is his favourite cousin. He asked, “Are they going to kill David?” I said, “Nobody is going to kill David, you just keep going to school, keep doing what you’re doing”…

I told David, this is just the beginning, this is far from over. It isn’t over until God says so, and God didn’t tell me it was over yet… I told David, I walk with God, he’s on my right, my left, my front, my back. My God got my back. There’s no government in the world that can move me from my faith. I get up and pray, and I walked into that courtroom, and I sat there… We were praying for Lord, you should have kept praying to Allah, to take care of Lord. You should have left it with God, like we did. You say you believe in Allah, then that’s who you should have left it with, and stayed out of God’s way. Because Lord is still walking around. He still sick, but he’s still here.

How do you think being black affected [David’s] trial, in terms of the media coverage and other aspects?

We were the only African American family, James Cromitie and us, besides form the Liberty Six. But right here in New York, if they had not even went to the mosque… I even went to the mosque, I asked them, how could you let [the informant] sit in the parking lot for almost a year? If you knew he was targeting people. You said in the Times paper, “How do you report the government to the government”, you just damn do… You could have ran him off that lot, and these men wouldn’t be in the predicament they’re in… And the imam has said, he wish he would have spoken up, and these men wouldn’t be where they at right now if he would have spoken up. But they knew he was an informant. Except for James Cromite.

James Cromitie would only see money… Even on the tapes that we have, when the men say “Well we don’t want anyone to get hurt”, the informant would over talk them… These men don’t even have GEDs. You are [the informant] a businessman! You own Getty gas stations! Your family has 22 houses in Pakistan! You were in organizations that these men knew nothing about. You said you attended a terrorist camp on the stand. And I thought, if they got a real terrorist, what are we sitting here for? What is going on here?… I don’t believe what I just witnessed. On his case, you only see him driving them around. Instead of driving Miss Daisy, you’re driving around four fools… Where’s the intelligence? Where’s the meat in the case? There wasn’t any… I don’t even know how they got convicted. Fear. Intimidation… The case was unbelievable. That’s all I can say… The justice system is going to hell…. We as the people who do have integrity, we have to uphold the law, and make sure that there is accountability… Where are going in the future as Americans? I don’t know where we’re going as Americans… which is really sad.

I’ve read a few things by Karen Greenberg, and a few other people, on the way that anti-Semitism was used in the case. I’m wondering if you have any thoughts on why the FBI selected synagogues as targets, whether that was on purpose or…

Well, you know when you pick a synagogue, when you pick Jews, it’s going to bring attention. What I learned in 2 years, is that the media is full of shit too, and is controlled by the government… The media is controlled with the fear factor. You put it out there, and so the community can buy it, and they feed into it, without even questioning it, without even breaking it down, without even saying, “This really happened?”…

.. I see how they used the media to create fear. Because I met with the rabbi, the first week this happened with David and them… I wanted him to know that we weren’t brought up like that, that we weren’t like that, and that if something would have happened, I wouldn’t have been able to sit there and look him in the face, and talk to him. But I wanted him to know that we’re a family, and we’re a loving family. I told him, “The government manufactured this crime”, and he said, “Well, James said some hurtful things”… James talked about Jewish women [on the FBI tapes]. But he said, “You will not see us out there” and we didn’t. He said, “You will not see the Jewish community out there”, and we did not.

You mean having the Jewish community being in support of [David’s case]?

No, we didn’t [see them supporting his case]. During my rallying, my picketing in front of the courthouse, the court was empty. Then I met with him in this July past, and I asked him how it would feel to be used. We were used, and you were used. The only difference is that you’re getting grants, and David and them are going away for life.

How did he respond?

He was just quiet. That’s the only difference. You all got three grants. And I asked him, if you really want to do something, I asked him, why don’t you take some of that money from the court and open up a center in Newburgh. Have you been up there? They have nothing there. All the money and resources was spent to create and manufacture this crime, and set up this dramatic scene. They could have opened up a job training site for ex-offenders, they could have had a place for mental health for Laguerre [one of the other convicted defendants], who’s a schizophrenic coming home, an ex-offender. There’s so much that they could have done with that money, and if they would have asked me I would have told them what they could have done with that money instead of manufacturing that damn crime, that bogus crime, that you’re going to give someone life for, when you could have saved their life by giving them the opportunity to get a solid foundation, when they re-entered back into society. There are double standards here.

I was raised Jewish, and when I heard about the case, that was definitely one of the things that occurred to me – that the Jewish community had been used, but had been so unable to respond to what happened in a way that recognized that.

I don’t know, they have fear against the government because the government gives them money. I told him… you’re supposed to be the people of God, how can you have a faith and know that this is an injustice, and you not speak about it? I even stopped going to church. I believe in God, but my faith has been tested too. These are supposed to be people of God. How can you get up and preach, and have a sermon, which you say you have, over your flock, and know that this was an injustice, and you’re accepting money, which I call it blood money from the government. How can you sleep at night? I don’t understand that.

In terms of manufacturing the terror that exists, do you wonder why the government chooses to do it? Do you think someone in particular stands to benefit?

No one should be doing this! No one should be creating this kind of fear, and using the tactics that they’re using. No country and no government should be doing it at all.  Trying to create this kind of fear among a community, to control, to justify your spending for your war. What you need to do it stop fighting…  But when you internalize it, and turn it around, and use your own American people, who were born on American soil, that’s what I have a big problem with… We know there are causalities of war, but why use your own people, in causality of war. I feel like they said, “David’s going to be causality”…. But why would you use your own people? For funding, for greed, for money. I’ve seen how ruthless politics is!

Even seeking help in this case from council members. No one wanted to touch this case, no one. One lawyer stopped me and told me, “No one is going to help because it’s dealing with terror, and it’s political, no one will want to get involved”. Looking for people in the civil rights movement, I literally had to fight for myself… What’s the point of the Constitution or human rights if you can’t help me? I cussed out Amnesty USA… Well the government is creating this fear. I guess I know that because we’re sitting right up in it! “We’re scared ourselves, what do you want us to do?” That’s what the lady said. Where the hell do you go when something like this happens? Who do you go to, as an American, who do you go to? So I guess now, I’m thinking about going to the UN… This is a human issue that affects us all as Americans, as people… What happened to the civil rights movement, when issues like this occurred?  I was on [a radio show] there weeks ago. We spoke on the weekend review, we spoke on how the government is using African Americans now to be the faces of terrorism. So what do we do as the people? Who do we go to for help? That’s why I told David, this is far from over, this is just the beginning…

Could you say a little bit more about what you said about African Americans in the War on Terror in general? … When I read a lot of the media coverage, the references to “crack dens” and such, it seemed like the media was trying to create fear not just on the basis that they were Muslim, but also because they were Black.

This is a new tactic… The government has kept African Americans and people of colour in fear for a long time. We know with the Rockefeller laws and the drug laws. Now when you’re using African Americans for the faces of terrorism? And in this community, I’ve been doing a lot of outreach and the response I get is, “We knew that was fake. We knew they set those guys up. That’s entrapment.” Where are you going to find C-4[an explosive] in the hood? You going to go to the 99 cent store? Let’s be realistic… Two brothers from the military told me, two brothers, told me, and I told the lawyer, “Follow the money”… And I said it would lead back to the government, which it did!

Do you think that’s why they chose Newburgh?

Newburgh is the most impoverished county [in New York], for one. We know that they have been sending in informants to prey on poor communities for years… when they were dealing with Martin Luther King, with Malcolm X. That’s why I said, it’s COINTEL all over again. It’s the same COINTEL with new tactics, so COINTEL never left. It never left us… look at the Newburgh Four case. The plot unfolded as the trial began. When we first went to court, they didn’t have a case together… The judge even said it, “The case unfolded as the trial began”…

Do you feel any hope for the future? Do you think it’s possible for the racism and Islamphobia to change?

I think we have to keep fighting, and we can’t give up …They created this thing, and you all fell for it. They’re protecting you from who? The question is, who’s going to protect us from the damn government… They want to control… You want to police the state, you keep the fear factor that someone’s going to bomb America, that someone’s going to bomb the airplanes, that someone’s going to bomb this synagogue… You keep it up… We need to put security here, we need to get an FBI database, we need to spy on people on Facebook… this has just gone mad!… You want to justify security, we need to develop this, we need new databases… for what? You’re the one scaring the people! I haven’t seen anyone coming over to scare us since 9/11, the only one scaring us is ya’ll!

.. How do we fight this fear? How do we wake people up? How do we take the blinders off the community, and help people to wake up and take a stand like they used to?  This is where I’m at right now… The community has to wake up!… I want to go into the Muslim community. Tell people how to spot an informant. What are the key words to listen to? Put up the pictures. Tell someone! Speak out !.. What can you do if the FBI is harassing you, what can you do if the FBI asks you to become an informant… There’s groups that will help you… This is what we’re trying to do now, set up presentations in the Muslim community and the mosques.

Courtesy of our friends at CagePrisoners.

Show your support for our brothers by writing to them and letting them know that you are aware of their plight and that they and their families remain in your dua’:

David Williams #70659-054
USP McCreary
U.S. Penitentiary
PO Box 3000
Pine Knot, KY 42635
USA

.

Onta Williams #83614-054
FCI McDowell
Federal Correction Institution
PO Box 1009
Welch, WV 24801
USA

.

James Cromitie #70658-054
FCI Ray Brook
Federal Correctional Institution
PO Box 300
Ray Brook, NY 12977
USA

.

Laguerre Payen #85165-054
USP Hazelton
U.S. Penitentiary
PO Box 2000
Bruceton Mills, WV 26525
USA

.

And do not forget them & their familes in your dua’.