So here is my gathering: I didn’t teach them any of these [violent] acts, but I told them to be physically fit. I told them what Islam says and that we should have the strength of two men so we can protect our families. If ever Bosnia or the second coming came, then we will have to learn to defend ourselves. Life skills, survival, and fitness. This is what Allah has told us, is to be ready when the time arises. “Racial attack”! Never did I say this is for the purpose of terrorism or I never said to anyone that you should go and fight abroad. It’s very clear it’s to do with protecting your wife of the second coming or doing Hijra.
When I talked about training camps abroad, this is very clear: I am talking about hearsay. Being a Muslim you hear these stories, but if you run a bookshop, you will hear a lot more stories. Now, on the probe I am very clearly talking about these stories before 9/11, before bin Laden and al-Queda, when everything was legal.
But you have to study why I am saying this story. Look at all the probes. When I talk about these training camps, instead of me saying that I heard these stories, I am speaking like I was the guy. But even then, why was I relating this story? This was to do with discipline. I have mentioned this about 5 times in the probe, and when you listen to the conversation I’m having before and after, it clearly proves that all I was saying is that people should come camping and learn to live rough. Learn survival, sleep rough, and try and live with out the luxury because one day a time might come when you might have to do Hijra or live out in the open.
So all these guys that said that they were coming camping and have not turned up, I’m going to [send] them a nasty text? These guys, their mums wash their clothes, do their cooking, these guys don’t want to let go of their luxury and come camping. This is why 9 out of 10 people used to come back [from Hijra] because they could not hack the environment in Pakistan or Afghanistan. If you don’t learn the hardship, then how are you going to survive? This proves that we people in England are used to luxury, and when we go abroad, we can’t take hardship. So one day, we will have to take hardship if we will have to do Hijra. We must teach our wives as well. So why does the wife have to learn as well? Obviously it’s to do with if the time of Hijra ever comes and nothing to do with going abroad to fight.
I have never been to a training camp, and I have no connections. My phone records prove I have no connection abroad or any records, no phone calls. Plus, the only connection is that I went to a refugee camp in January to March in 2002. For 4 years [of records] we had no phone calls or any connections. What kind of trainer am I if I am sending people abroad. (I was being watched for two years or maybe more) but you have no records of me having any connection in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, or Iraq, or anywhere else? Only India and that’s my family.
There was no planning of fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. Yes, I do exaggerate and I do lie, old habits don’t die easily. I’m trying to bring discipline and my lying in achieving my goal, then why not. My goal was Islamic discipline and not terrorism. This is very clear when I say ‘I will teach you discipline in Aklaaq and Ikhlaas or Adaab or Ikram and reading Quran’. This was my goal, making them a better Muslim.
Well, as you heard me saying about the Mujaheedin and in the Quran Allah says He loves the Mujahid, and every soul would like to be recognised by Allah as a Mujahid. But a Mujahid has a quality, and if you don’t have this Islamic quality, then you are not a Mujahid. So this is why I talk to them to learn Islamic discipline and bring this good quality into their life. Mujahid is a good Muslim; he struggles and strives in Islam, he has good manners. I have never said to anyone become a Mujahid and go and kill or fight in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Allah says that the Muslims should live in the land of Islamic Sharia. Everybody is talking about doing Hijra. People are suggesting that no country has implemented Sharia. People say, ‘where can we go that is real sharia?’ All of a sudden, we hear news that Somalia has implemented the Sharia. So after a few weeks later, we [have] this guy going back to his country to see his family with his Mum. So I suggest to him video and research and find out for us if it is real Sharia. Why do I have to ask this guy to find out for me? If I were al-Queda, then am I going to wait 3 months before he comes back? This just does not make sense. [Note: Hamid is referring to the brief rule of the Islamic Courts Union in 2006 before the US-backed Ethiopian invasion and before any faction in Somalia was allied with al-Queda.]
I say to the group, if we find out and it’s real Sharia, then who is willing to do Hijra and help them with the Law and Order? There is no law that states that it’s a crime to go to bring stability to country and help the country. It’s our part of Islam to help. Why do people always think when Muslims bring Sharia to a country they are regarded as al-Queda? Sorry. If we Muslims bring Sharia in our country and it’s real Sharia and 95% of muslims want this Sharia, you [in the] west call it al-Queda when Somalia has not even heard of Osama or Al-Queda. America is only using the name al-Queda so we Muslims can not bring Sharia into our own countries. If we went to Sudan and tried to bring real Sharia there and overthrow the government and help al the people of Darfur, America would intervene because deep down its got nothing to do with al-Queda or Osama. It’s got to do with Islam and you don’t want any country to become strong in their belief. So we have every right to go to Somalia and help. We are not talking about going to Somalia and joining al-Queda or becoming a terrorist.
This was not a plan, it was just a suggestion, and why is it [that] no one went? Then I turned around and said I am going to Tanzania to go on Safari; I asked who wants to come? I said I want to see my birthland and see if it’s good enough for me to do Hijra there. Then I said we can hire a car and drive down to Kenya and go into the land of Sharia in Somalia and see what its like: you can find a wife there, live there, if we get a good car then we can drive to South Africa and meet Mandela. Well, this does not look like we are planning to fight, does it?
It’s very clear that I like to travel and see things. If my purpose were to arrange people to go and fight abroad and [get] trained, then it would be very clearly not like this. Why mention Tanzania, why South Africa, and Mandela? Nothing was decisive. If a guy were training people to go abroad, then he would know exactly where to send them. He would clearly tell his recruits, this the place and are you coming? or are you ready? There is no talk on any organising to go abroad. If I send people abroad, then why does Hassan have to ask Dawood [undercover cop] privately for money? Don’t you think I would be the first person he would be asking if I were the one who was recruiting and sending people? Nothing makes sense.
Why do in the probes I say there is no camp? Why do I say all the camps are closed now, and the CIA is running their own camps that are still open? Why do I say to the guys if there was a camp would you jump to it and if you did, then you would get a beating and get put in a hole because of your behaviour? Why do I say the scholars say do charity and dawah? Why do I say to the guys to go out on 40 days Tabligh Jamat? Why do I not ask them to go fight and why do I keep telling the guys to go and learn basic Islam on 40 days and learn spiritual Islam and learn discipline?
If I were recruiting people to fight, then I would not take them off course and tell them to go on 40 days Tabligh Jamat: it’s a spiritual movement, and you stay in a mosque. I myself was going to South Africa with a group; Dawood [undercover cop] and the authorities know this movement is very peaceful. I said to Dawood to come with me and learn the basics so I could let go of him, and he can go his own way. Dawood is supposed to be the undercover officer I recruited from my table. He is always on time, he is very disciplined, he is very good in exercise, he’s come first in paintballing; wow, you can’t get a better guy. Then why did I not even speak to him about fighting abroad? Nothing on the probes or his recordings [about this].
[Next: The Stupidity of Dawood… coming soon]